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Author Topic: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on  (Read 2474 times)

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nashnwo0

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Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« on: August 03, 2009, 03:43:28 AM »
Ok like I said I am not in favor of the Obama plan. You maybe asking yourself but why Nash you love you Canadian health care system why not like Obama's plan. Well heres one main reason:

1) Its forcing the poor to pay Not just a fair tax across the board but a oh sorry about your luck you don't have health care not a problem go see the tax man and here is your health care.

This isn't reforming anything but putting a tax on lower income people that can't afford it. Ok so there are more reasons but I will stop there and just repeat I DON'T LIKE OBAMA'S PLAN!!!

Ok so where to start:

I got a person trying to tell me Canadians hate there health care more then Amercans hate there. I kind of find this funny:



Quote
7-in-10 Canadians say that Canada’s health care system is working well.
Nationally, 70% of Canadians said the system was working very well (12%) or fairly well
(58%). 28% of respondents said the system was not working well, including 9% who
said the system was not working well at all. There is strong support for the view that the
system is working well in most regions of the country. However, residents of Quebec
were more split on the question, with 52% saying the system worked well, and 43%
saying it did not work well.




Quote
By an overwhelming margin, Canadians prefer the Canadian health care system to the American one.
Overall, 82% said they preferred the Canadian system, fully ten times the number who said the American system is
superior (8%). Once again this was the prevailing viewpoint across all demographic groups nationwide, with
resistance being highest once again in Quebec. Where one-in-five (19%) said they preferred the American system.




Quote
Considering both cost and patient care factors, a majority of Canadians (55%) think that the health system
should be more public, and only 12% think that more of the health system should be private. One in four
(27%) believe that the current system strikes the right balance between publicly funded and pay-per-use care.




Quote
Each week, Harris/Decima interviews just over 1000 Canadians through teleVox, the company’s national telephone
omnibus survey. These data were gathered between June 4 and June 8, 2009. A sample of the same size has a margin of error of 3.1%, 19 times out of 20.


Link

So let me get this right 55% want Canadian heal care to be more Evil socialized and 82% of Canadians pretty much said no way to the US system over Canada but Canadians would want a change in our health care. I guess you can say we want a change but its not a Private system change. Besides why would Canadians vote Tommy Douglas the father of evil socialized health care the greatest Canadian ever if they "hate" there health care so much.

Link

Like I said before I just used our system. Saw 2 specialist, CT scan, blood work, urine test, Ultra Sound test and a Prescription all in 1 day. The only thing I had to pay was for parking. Wait a little long but if the afternoon crew would have told the night crew I was waiting for the CT scan I would have gotten done it way faster because once they realized I was there in CT scan section they came to me with in 20 minutes. Yeah there were 2 people leaving over a hour wait but when they left the doctor was looking for them and they were no were to be found I guess it wasn't that much of a emergence because anyone that needed to see a doctor would want to see a doctor and not leave the waiting area for a long time which they did but I digress.

To be continued..........................
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nashnwo0

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2009, 03:43:53 AM »


Quote
Almost 90% of Canadians currently have a family doctor. Nearly all Canadians
surveyed (87%) currently have a family doctor. However, those living in Quebec (24%),
the Prairies (17%) and Alberta (13%) are more likely than average to not have a family
doctor than those in other provinces. Those who are under the age of 35 (22%) are
more likely to not have a family doctor than older Canadians.

Older Canadians over the age of 50 (59%) are more likely than those under the age of 35 (49%) to rate the level of
service they receive as excellent.




Quote
Given the high level of satisfaction with their family doctors, it is unsurprising that few would switch
doctors even if it was easy to do so. More than four-in-five (82%) said they would NOT switch their family
doctor if it were easy to do so. This viewpoint is consistent nationwide with no less than 79% in any particular
region being unwilling to switch family doctors even if it were easy to do so.




Quote
This data was gathered among a sample of 2000 Canadians, between June 4 and June 14 2009 through teleVox, the
company’s national telephone omnibus. A sample of the same size has a margin of error of 2.2%, 19 times out of 20.


Link

Maybe its just because I'm in Ontario with a Family doctor that I think gives excellent care and without a Family Doctor you are screwed have fun in the ER waits. I will also say its hard to switch Family Doctor for the plain fact a shortage of doctors.


To be continued..........................
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nashnwo0

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2009, 03:44:14 AM »
Lets get some MYTHS out of the way about Canadian Health care:

Myth: Taxes in Canada are extremely high, mostly because of national health care.

In actuality, taxes are nearly equal on both sides of the border. Overall, Canada's taxes are slightly higher than those in the U.S. However, Canadians are afforded many benefits for their tax dollars, even beyond health care (e.g., tax credits, family allowance, cheaper higher education), so the end result is a wash. At the end of the day, the average after-tax income of Canadian workers is equal to about 82 percent of their gross pay. In the U.S., that average is 81.9 percent.

Myth: Canada's health care system is a cumbersome bureaucracy.

The U.S. has the most bureaucratic health care system in the world. More than 31 percent of every dollar spent on health care in the U.S. goes to paperwork, overhead, CEO salaries, profits, etc. The provincial single-payer system in Canada operates with just a 1 percent overhead. Think about it. It is not necessary to spend a huge amount of money to decide who gets care and who doesn't when everybody is covered.

Myth: The Canadian system is significantly more expensive than that of the U.S.Ten percent of Canada's GDP is spent on health care for 100 percent of the population. The U.S. spends 17 percent of its GDP but 15 percent of its population has no coverage whatsoever and millions of others have inadequate coverage. In essence, the U.S. system is considerably more expensive than Canada's. Part of the reason for this is uninsured and underinsured people in the U.S. still get sick and eventually seek care. People who cannot afford care wait until advanced stages of an illness to see a doctor and then do so through emergency rooms, which cost considerably more than primary care services.

What the American taxpayer may not realize is that such care costs about $45 billion per year, and someone has to pay it. This is why insurance premiums increase every year for insured patients while co-pays and deductibles also rise rapidly.

Myth: Canada's government decides who gets health care and when they get it.While HMOs and other private medical insurers in the U.S. do indeed make such decisions, the only people in Canada to do so are physicians. In Canada, the government has absolutely no say in who gets care or how they get it. Medical decisions are left entirely up to doctors, as they should be.

There are no requirements for pre-authorization whatsoever. If your family doctor says you need an MRI, you get one. In the U.S., if an insurance administrator says you are not getting an MRI, you don't get one no matter what your doctor thinks — unless, of course, you have the money to cover the cost.

Myth: There are long waits for care, which compromise access to care.There are no waits for urgent or primary care in Canada. There are reasonable waits for most specialists' care, and much longer waits for elective surgery. Yes, there are those instances where a patient can wait up to a month for radiation therapy for breast cancer or prostate cancer, for example. However, the wait has nothing to do with money per se, but everything to do with the lack of radiation therapists. Despite such waits, however, it is noteworthy that Canada boasts lower incident and mortality rates than the U.S. for all cancers combined, according to the U.S. Cancer Statistics Working Group and the Canadian Cancer Society. Moreover, fewer Canadians (11.3 percent) than Americans (14.4 percent) admit unmet health care needs.

Myth: Canadians are paying out of pocket to come to the U.S. for medical care.Most patients who come from Canada to the U.S. for health care are those whose costs are covered by the Canadian governments. If a Canadian goes outside of the country to get services that are deemed medically necessary, not experimental, and are not available at home for whatever reason (e.g., shortage or absence of high tech medical equipment; a longer wait for service than is medically prudent; or lack of physician expertise), the provincial government where you live fully funds your care. Those patients who do come to the U.S. for care and pay out of pocket are those who perceive their care to be more urgent than it likely is.

Myth: Canada is a socialized health care system in which the government runs hospitals and where doctors work for the government.Princeton University health economist Uwe Reinhardt says single-payer systems are not "socialized medicine" but "social insurance" systems because doctors work in the private sector while their pay comes from a public source. Most physicians in Canada are self-employed. They are not employees of the government nor are they accountable to the government. Doctors are accountable to their patients only. More than 90 percent of physicians in Canada are paid on a fee-for-service basis. Claims are submitted to a single provincial health care plan for reimbursement, whereas in the U.S., claims are submitted to a multitude of insurance providers. Moreover, Canadian hospitals are controlled by private boards and/or regional health authorities rather than being part of or run by the government.

Myth: There aren't enough doctors in Canada.

From a purely statistical standpoint, there are enough physicians in Canada to meet the health care needs of its people. But most doctors practice in large urban areas, leaving rural areas with bona fide shortages. This situation is no different than that being experienced in the U.S. Simply training and employing more doctors is not likely to have any significant impact on this specific problem. Whatever issues there are with having an adequate number of doctors in any one geographical area, they have nothing to do with the single-payer system.

And these are just some of the myths about the Canadian health care system. While emulating the Canadian system will likely not fix U.S. health care, it probably isn't the big bad "socialist" bogeyman it has been made out to be.

It is not a perfect system, but it has its merits. For people like my 55-year-old Aunt Betty, who has been waiting for 14 months for knee-replacement surgery due to a long history of arthritis, it is the superior system. Her $35,000-plus surgery is finally scheduled for next month. She has been in pain, and her quality of life has been compromised. However, there is a light at the end of the tunnel. Aunt Betty — who lives on a fixed income and could never afford private health insurance, much less the cost of the surgery and requisite follow-up care — will soon sport a new, high-tech knee. Waiting 14 months for the procedure is easy when the alternative is living in pain for the rest of your life.

Link

Doctor one I disagree with it all depends on where you live in Canada.

To be Continued.............................
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nashnwo0

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2009, 05:56:58 AM »
Lets bring up Shona Holmes and her lies again. Even if she was telling the 100% truth one case doesn't prove anything. There are many people that survived an actual brain tumor.



Yes it still cost her because of the medication and therapy isn't covered.

Ok now lets see what the WHO has to say about Canadian and American Health Care:

Quote
In North America, Canada rates as the country with the fairest mechanism for health system finance – ranked at 17-19, while the United States is at 54-55.


Link

They show Canadians live longer but that could be due to many factors not just health care so I will skip that.



Damn that didn't show up that great. But basically it shows more Canadian dies of Cancer and HIV/AID. This is simply due to the lack of Isotope/doctors. This is where a wait is a bad thing because by the time they figure you have it all they can do is slow it down not cure you. But if the Canadian doctors have it there way the test will be done and pass for cures of both HIV/AID and Cancer but I digress.

The Quick tools are acting up for me so I will be using there PDF report of 2009

Quote
Measles immunization coverage among 1-year-olds (%)
Canada 94
United States of America 93


1% difference but if you put into affect that American is like 10 times bigger that 1% is pretty big.

Quote
17. Tuberculosis treatment success under DOTS (%)
United States of America 64
Canada 57


America does better there.



You can look throw the file:

Link

To be Continued........................
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Angelycon

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2009, 09:29:05 AM »
This was a very interesting read I think :) Gave you a karma for it.
I have never really bothered to learn more about the different health care systems in Canada and the US, although I did know that the US people have to pay for their health care pretty much themselves (leading to loosing homes when the bills are too big etc), and the Canadian health care is much more like the one in Finland. This proved my thoughts and told me a little more than I already knew (for example that most Canadians have family doctors).

So for now I continue to like Canada's health care system :)
I have no idea about what Obama's plan is though.
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RockNTheFreeWorld

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2009, 12:53:15 PM »
If you can find a plan that does not decrease anyone's care yet still covers everyone, I might could support that.  But no plan has been put forward that would do so since no plan like that exists. 
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nashnwo0

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #6 on: August 04, 2009, 01:34:13 AM »
If you can find a plan that does not decrease anyone's care yet still covers everyone, I might could support that.  But no plan has been put forward that would do so since no plan like that exists. 


If you I agree if you call decrease in care as in waits ok. I think France is the closest to a perfect health care system.

« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 01:55:26 AM by nashnwo0 »
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RockNTheFreeWorld

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2009, 07:11:51 AM »
I don't agree that waits need to increase very much.  If you are talking about an increase of a couple days to see a doctor, I might be OK with that.  But if the increase is measured in more than a couple of days, I am not interested.  With health care, waits can be deadly. 
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nashnwo0

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2009, 07:22:23 AM »
I agree and thats where you get to see your family doctor fast normally within days. From there you get evaluated by getting the test or scans you need. I have personal been to see my doctor then was told to go to the hospital there going to be waiting for you and saw them right away and that was because they thought I may have had a blood clot in my leg which I can't feel. The horror story's only come from those that don't have a Family doctor and there I agree thats one big flaw. If everyone had a Family Doctor then ER rooms wouldn't be as busy they still will be somewhat busy but not as it is now.
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wetbedknob

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2009, 07:43:00 AM »
How tough is it to get a family doctor? Are there waiting lists for doctors?
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nashnwo0

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #10 on: August 04, 2009, 07:52:36 AM »
How tough is it to get a family doctor? Are there waiting lists for doctors?

That actually depends on where you live which is a huge problem. If you live in a big city within a month if you live in a small city and wrong Provence good luck maybe a few month. If your in a small city without a family doctor and worried about something you better be wanting to wait that time in the ER to get looked after. I know many people don't want to wait in a ER but it is true if your getting worse and the nurse sees it your bumped up right away. So yeah your going to wait for things like broken leg, pain in back or whatever isn't that life threating your going to wait so don't be impatient. Like I also side when I was in the ER Thursday I saw 2 guys be impatient and miss the doctor looking for them. Its not days or months but hours with ER wait.

Oh yeah forgot to say its better you have a family doctor you had for a while because Family doctors can normally get you into Specialist faster for surgery. Like if you were in the ER and you had to have a surgery you maybe waiting little longer for things to line up if not life threating because family doctors run there private clinic which has there list of doctors they know to send people to. Only thing different is the Doctors bill the government.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2009, 08:12:45 AM by nashnwo0 »
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RockNTheFreeWorld

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2009, 09:22:26 AM »
With the number of doctors leaving practice in the US because costs are rising faster than payments can keep up and the government/insurance companies keep cutting payments, how can moving to a system where the government pays be half as good? 

The best thing for the US would be to divorce insurance from employment, subsidize insurance coverage through tax cuts/subsidies, remove coverage restrictions (ie: requiring everyone to get particular coverage they do not want or need), reform malpractice, give tax breaks to doctors for performing pro bono work for the poor, and turn things over to the people to decide what they want.  All of these are government created problems that are keeping the people from having care.
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nashnwo0

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2009, 11:41:40 AM »
I guess but trust me doctors here in Canada are not hurting for money thats for sure. With a system of ours it cuts down in over head costs because everyone gets the same package. It actually cost less here then in the states to do the same procedures. But yes I agree if your going to keep the private health care as a major part of your system it won't work it will just raise cost. If you did have a public option and the government subsidies that would actually hurt the private doctors more because Government has bigger deeper pockets you might as well go to a true single payer system which I wish Canada still was and didn't have any private health care here.
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RockNTheFreeWorld

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2009, 12:22:53 PM »
The government doesn't have bigger, deeper pockets.  That is our money to start with.  Assuming that costs are contained while providing coverage for everyone (ie: adding all of those with no or little coverage doesn't add to the overall costs). we would need to increase tax revenue by around 75% to cover the costs (tax revenues for 2008 estimated at $2.66 trillion and health care costs estimated at $2.4 trillion minus around $500 billion already paid by the government).  Even if the US dropped to where other countries are in single payer systems, we would only save about $500 billion.  Sounds like a lot but it still would require taxes to increase by a lot. 

Considering that Medicare spends over $10,000 per person enrolled while the US average is only around $7,000, I find it doubtful that the government can save any money at all and more than likely will spend much more than we currently do.  I know many people on Medicare and can tell you that it doesn't provide any level of coverage I would consider decent.  When people have to decide whether to get glasses, their blood pressure medicine, or see the doctor about a new problem, all because they can't afford to do more than one of them, something is wrong.  And you can't tell me some magic wand is going to be waved to suddenly reduce those costs and allow everyone to get everything for free.

Since you like opinion polls, etc, lets try this on.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

Medical care in the United States is derided as miserable compared to health care systems in the rest of the developed world. Economists, government officials, insurers, and academics beat the drum for a far larger government role in health care. Much of the public assumes that their arguments are sound because the calls for change are so ubiquitous and the topic so complex. Before we turn to government as the solution, however, we should consider some unheralded facts about America’s health care system.

1. Americans have better survival rates than Europeans for common cancers. Breast cancer mortality is 52 percent higher in Germany than in the United States and 88 percent higher in the United Kingdom. Prostate cancer mortality is 604 percent higher in the United Kingdom and 457 percent higher in Norway. The mortality rate for colorectal cancer among British men and women is about 40 percent higher.

2. Americans have lower cancer mortality rates than Canadians. Breast cancer mortality in Canada is 9 percent higher than in the United States, prostate cancer is 184 percent higher, and colon cancer among men is about 10 percent higher.

3. Americans have better access to treatment for chronic diseases than patients in other developed countries. Some 56 percent of Americans who could benefit from statin drugs, which reduce cholesterol and protect against heart disease, are taking them. By comparison, of those patients who could benefit from these drugs, only 36 percent of the Dutch, 29 percent of the Swiss, 26 percent of Germans, 23 percent of Britons, and 17 percent of Italians receive them.

4. Americans have better access to preventive cancer screening than Canadians. Take the proportion of the appropriate-age population groups who have received recommended tests for breast, cervical, prostate, and colon cancer:

    * Nine out of ten middle-aged American women (89 percent) have had a mammogram, compared to fewer than three-fourths of Canadians (72 percent).

    * Nearly all American women (96 percent) have had a Pap smear, compared to fewer than 90 percent of Canadians.

    * More than half of American men (54 percent) have had a prostatespecific antigen (PSA) test, compared to fewer than one in six Canadians (16 percent).

    * Nearly one-third of Americans (30 percent) have had a colonoscopy, compared with fewer than one in twenty Canadians (5 percent).

5. Lower-income Americans are in better health than comparable Canadians. Twice as many American seniors with below-median incomes self-report “excellent” health (11.7 percent) compared to Canadian seniors (5.8 percent). Conversely, white, young Canadian adults with below-median incomes are 20 percent more likely than lower-income Americans to describe their health as “fair or poor.”

6. Americans spend less time waiting for care than patients in Canada and the United Kingdom. Canadian and British patients wait about twice as long—sometimes more than a year—to see a specialist, have elective surgery such as hip replacements, or get radiation treatment for cancer. All told, 827,429 people are waiting for some type of procedure in Canada. In Britain, nearly 1.8 million people are waiting for a hospital admission or outpatient treatment.

7. People in countries with more government control of health care are highly dissatisfied and believe reform is needed. More than 70 percent of German, Canadian, Australian, New Zealand, and British adults say their health system needs either “fundamental change” or “complete rebuilding.”

8. Americans are more satisfied with the care they receive than Canadians. When asked about their own health care instead of the “health care system,” more than half of Americans (51.3 percent) are very satisfied with their health care services, compared with only 41.5 percent of Canadians; a lower proportion of Americans are dissatisfied (6.8 percent) than Canadians (8.5 percent).

9. Americans have better access to important new technologies such as medical imaging than do patients in Canada or Britain. An overwhelming majority of leading American physicians identify computerized tomography (CT) and magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) as the most important medical innovations for improving patient care during the previous decade—even as economists and policy makers unfamiliar with actual medical practice decry these techniques as wasteful. The United States has thirty-four CT scanners per million Americans, compared to twelve in Canada and eight in Britain. The United States has almost twenty-seven MRI machines per million people compared to about six per million in Canada and Britain.

10. Americans are responsible for the vast majority of all health care innovations. The top five U.S. hospitals conduct more clinical trials than all the hospitals in any other developed country. Since the mid- 1970s, the Nobel Prize in medicine or physiology has gone to U.S. residents more often than recipients from all other countries combined. In only five of the past thirty-four years did a scientist living in the United States not win or share in the prize. Most important recent medical innovations were developed in the United States.

Despite serious challenges, such as escalating costs and care for the uninsured, the U.S. health care system compares favorably to those in other developed countries.
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nashnwo0

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Re: Canada vs. US and the debate goes on and on
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2009, 06:55:36 PM »
Thats really hard to believe that public option would be more where everywhere else in the world its cheaper. hahaha WBK showed me that. Thats what started this. I don't believe anything that A) says we hate our health care more then the states. B) Doesn't really state what part of Canada they study because like I said for all I know they could have study a part that is hard to get family doctors. C) Oh really better access to CT MRI hmmmmmmmm I wonder what machine I was in Thursday was and wasn't dying. D) I guess you can say Americas health care is number one considering it has never been ranked so but Canada's was a long time ago. E) I guess you can ignore the survey at the top sure we rate it lower. Not saying people don't have a problem with it Riff Raff does so I asked him to pop in here if he gets the changes.

Plus

1.    The U.S. spent 16.2% of its GDP on health care plus up to 3% more on litigation concerning medical bills while other countries spend 10% and nothing on litigation because bills are paid by everyone. This is America’s number one competitive disadvantage going forward.
2.    People with serious illnesses are uninsurable and are stuck in jobs they cannot leave or remain unemployed because they are unemployable.
3.    Tens of millions of uninsured people in the U.S. end up with health problems that become a drain on the society and economy in the long run.
4.    Doctor, nursing, hospital and drug costs are out of control in the U.S. because of the profit motive, compared to countries where universal health care provides the basic underpinning. (By the way, in Canada only 50% of total healthcare expenditures are covered by governments and the rest by individuals such as eyewear, dental or elective surgeries.)  U.S. costs are higher because doctors can over-service those with health insurance, and patients can over-demand. Litigation also leads to over-doctoring (too many tests or too many days in hospitals) as well as high expenses in the form of malpractice insurance, an overhead which, in comparison, is negligible in Canada or Europe.
5.    Detroit’s three automobile companies have gone bust in large measure due to “legacy” or gold-plated healthcare promises at America’s excessive prices that made that were unaffordable. This is not unique to the auto sector and has driven many jobs offshore in manufacturing.

http://network.nationalpost.com/np/blogs/francis/archive/2009/05/13/u-s-healthcare-lies-part-ii.aspx

But if you hate public care so much tell your government to get ride of:

    * Medicare, generally covering citizens and long-term residents 65 years and older.
    * Medicaid, generally covering low income people in certain categories, including children, pregnant women, and the disabled. (Administered by the states.)
    * State Children's Health Insurance Program, which provides health insurance for low-income children who do not qualify for Medicaid. (Administered by the states, with matching state funds.)
    * Various programs for federal employees, including TRICARE for military personnel (for use in civilian facilities)
    * The Veterans Administration, which provides care to veterans, their families, and survivors through medical centers and clinics.
    * National Institutes of Health treats patients who enroll in research for free.
    * Government run community clinics
    * Medical Corps of various branches of the military.
    * Certain county and state hospitals

Tell me how that goes I'm pretty sure Mrs. Grandma wouldn't like if that came into play. She is just recovering from major surgery covered by the big bad evil socialized health care. So you think its fair lets say you have to have brain surgery for some reason and your coverage only covers Doctor A which isn't bad but isn't the best and Doctor B the best in brain surgery is charging say 25,000,000 more. There both available when you need them just one is covered and one you have to pay for and you don't have the money for it. See in Canada I would get the surgery from Doctor B at the price of the room I stay and if I use the phone or watch TV in the room.
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